While Andy (Mile From The Beach) is away tending to God's business during his Blogfast, I thought I'd turn things lively here in the old blogverse. I had suggested in a post a while back that one thing I'd really like to see is a debate about the idea of homosexuality and Christianity. What I'd like is a loving debate where both sides present their arguments, people read and listen to these arguments, and respond in a loving and compassionate way. NO FLAMING! NO DEROGATORY REMARKS! Peaceful, kind, safe, intellectual, heartfelt, and Christian in the best sense of that word!
Well, as it turns out, Suzanne left this comment to my last blog:
I wanted to talk about something and I hope that someone responds. Today at a church I started attending lately, one of the ministers (a women), in her sermon about "love", announced that she married another woman in San Francisco a couple of years ago. I didn't quite know what to feel about it. To me, even if legal it seems weird. But who am I to judge? I am certainly a sinner that needs to repent everyday. Now I am not sure if this is the right church for me. What do you think?
I thought, this is the perfect opener to this debate. So I'm opening the discussion to everyone. Please, remember to be Christian in your responses. And please, don't just say, "Because the Bible says so." If it does say so, please leave a Chapter and Verse.
Okay, everyone, let's discern the Will of God!
P.S. I will give my opinion in the comments as well.
7 comments:
I think God provides messages to us in the strangest of packages. These messages are not what we expect them to be, but they test whether our hearts are really open to receiving the full value of God's love.
Its o.k. to fail the test - you will always be provided another opportunity. The question is do you recognize when you have failed?
Just this weekend, I ruminated on a recurrent problem I have. I am completely incapable of letting go of hurt. For some reason, my heart and my head have decided that the best way to fight against abuse is to keep a shield of abuse around me. So, when I am abused again, I will recognize it quicker.
The funny thing about that, though, is that I don't recognize it quicker. I start recognizing it wrong. I start believing that people are doing to me things that aren't in their hearts and hurting me much as I was so frightened of being hurt.
Did you catch the message?
I recently went through a pretty abusive employment situation. The boss was one of the worst I have ever had. He really affected my psyche and my morale, and I felt such despair. I wondered how, then, I could feel compassion. I also wondered why, when I walked away, I could not just let go.
In a moment of quietness, I simply opened up my heart and asked God to teach me to be truly happy. I asked him to allow me to feel the joy of life all around me. I told him to show me how forgivness really feels and to guide me in forgiving my boss so that I truly could walk on and leave it behind.
I can't say that I have walked on quite yet, but I know that by just opening my heart a tiny crack to something I felt so angry and hurt about, then maybe I am moving forward in life. My boss, as strange as it seems, was a gift for me. He was a message to me, about forgiveness, about moving forward through hurt and pain and living in the light. Which is just what I really, truly want. I want deep satisfaction.
My boss showed me, revealed for me, what I didn't have. And now that I have it, it is even more apparent because I can't quite feel it. Its right there, like a word at the tip of your tongue, but I can't quite grasp it. It will come.
So, back to your gay priest. She is a gift from God. There is a message there for you. You can love even that which your life and background and belief system tells you not to - because it is our duty as Christians to love, unconditionally.
You can love those who seem unloveable. I am not suggesting that a gay person is unloveable - far from it. I think love in any form is beautiful. It is not for me to accept or reject anyone's relationship. However, I am saying that the gift, to you, is in being shown a way to live as a Christian, in love, even when you are presented with a situation that seems to be in moral opposition to what you believe is Christ's message to you.
God never said being Christian would be easy. He did say love your neighbor as yourself. He didn't tell us who our neighbors would be. Our job is to open our hearts to the world and to love even those who behave in manners which we cannot condone. Love the person, not the act. It is God's right, and only God's right, to judge the act.
You are off the hook, my dear. You can love your pastor because that is the only thing God has asked you to do.
It is a message which was sent to you, with love, in the form of that gay pastor. And my boss, well, I'll try to love him, too.
I just have to say that the word verification is ugyoo. And that just makes me giggle.
Will, I'm back after a brief hiatus.
As you point out, this topic is one which invariably degenerates into ad hominem invective. I decided some time ago not to play, but since it's you, I'll jump in. :)
First, I make no judgments about the spiritual condition of someone's heart. That is not my concern. Indeed, we are all sinners in need of grace.
But we are called to repent, as well. This leads to the question of whether certain behaviors are sin. Regarding homosexual conduct, the Biblical answer seems pretty darn clear.
Thus the problem is not whether "God loves me," the problem is do wish to impose our wants and desires upon God, whose plan and view of things is expressed quite well.
As for me, I would never attend a church where the pastor condoned behavior which the bible calls a sin.
And now my comments...
I think this is one of those issues that says more about you than about the Bible. We all interpret the Bible. We can't help it. We're human. The Bible was written by humans with God's words. Unlike the Koran, we do not take the Bible to be God in written form. There are many interpretations and versions of the Bible. But when it all comes down to it, its how we interpret the scriptures that determines who we are and who we claim to be - which is why God wrote the covenant on our heart, so that we'd stop reading the minute details of the written word and start listening to that part of us that knows whether something is right or wrong.
I've been especially impressed with reading the Gospels of late. Time and time again, the religious leaders try to dictate to Jesus what the scriptures say and what they mean, and time and time again, Jesus smacks them upside the head and says, "You just don't get it!" My interpretation of the Bible is this, if we love one another and love God fully, we wouldn't even need a Bible to tell us how to behave.
I have a simple litmus test when it comes to religious questions - is my act or belief in conflict with rule #1 or rule #2? Does it interfere with my loving God with all my heart, mind, and soul? Does it interfere with my loving my neighbor as myself.
I know what the Bible says, but I also know what Jesus says. And I interpret that the latter is more important. I've been down the path where I hated homosexual behavior because some Christians told me it was the right thing to do and I can tell you from experience - that was the wrong path. Embrace all as your neighbors, love all, and let God sort it out in the end.
P.S. Thanks for all the comments. There are many debates about this issue, and I agree with Randall that this can be very divisive. But we must have the debates anyway, if only to continually contemplate the tough questions of faith.
Well said, Will. Thanks for saying it so I didn't have to.
Blog fast...over.
My comment - and I find that Romans 1 (along with Leviticu 18: 22) are pretty clear about the nature of this particular sin.
That said, it is what is in Romans 2 that is most damning of ANYONE who chooses to treat fellow sinners with judgment and disdain - and that is that we CANNOT judge others, for we sin as well, a follow on to Jesus' own words about looking at the log in our own eyes. And Jesus himself is clear that he himself is not the judge, but the mediator, and that there is one on the last day who will judge.
So Will is absolutely correct in saying that we must first follow the acts of "loving God" and "loving our neighbors"...warts and all, because we have those exact same warts.
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